Once the clutch plate is fully engaged against the pressure plate, both must turn together at the same speed. The only problem - there's a boat-load of information and I only know how to interpret a fraction of it. (not Diameter) But the catch is that this torque multiplication doesn't last very long. About Us - Each PayPal payment or donation button may also incorporate a tracking pixel called "pixel.gif" (which loads from paypalobjects.com). Also, as we explained in the sidebar of our article on GMs other early automatic transmissions, torque converters utilize the speed difference between the driving and driven torus members to multiply engine torque. 6l90 TCC apply ramp strategy. ECCC - HPTuners by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:54 pm, Post Anyway, I downloaded FORscan on my laptop and loaded several pids for the transmission. A reverse band surrounds a brake drum connected to the front carrier, which is also integral with the rear annulus (orange). Remember, you don't experience either symptom unless you have the wrong amount of fluid or the wrong fluid in the transmission. Therefore, a lockup clutch needs to be accompanied by some mechanism to selectively engage or disengage the clutch. Once the vehicle is moving at a constant speed, the speed difference between the impeller and turbine diminishes, eventually reaching a minimum point known as coupling stage. Unlike a reduction gear, this speed reduction doesnt multiply engine torque. Whether it will add to my working knowledge is debatable, but my brain will benefit from the workout. There was also a kickdown mechanism that allowed the driver to disengage the clutch at road speeds between 13 and 56 mph (21 and 90 km/h) by flooring the accelerator, allowing the torque converter to again multiply torque. Once governor pressure was sufficient to overcome the combined spring and throttle valve pressure, oil would be applied to the clutch cylinder, engaging the lockup clutch. Torque Converter slippage | PowerStrokeArmy Theglobal torque converter marketcontinues to grow and expand at a CAGR of 4.54%, which is projected until 2021. By logging into your account, you agree to our. The Vimeo Cookie Policy also provides information about how Vimeo users can control the use of third-party analytics and/or advertising cookies in connection with embedded Vimeo video players. ), This cookie was set if you clicked the "Disable Google Analytics Tracking" link to prevent the Google Analytics service from tracking your use of the Ate Up With Motor website. abs thank you for posting your experience here. Some persist for only a few minutes, or until you close your browser (or other user agent); others may remain in your browser (or other user agent) as long as your individual settings permit. This has been a quick jaunt through world of torque converters, but it should at least inspire some intelligent questions to ask your converter company of choice as to the best converter for your application. This is most noticeable from about 1200-1800 rpm. The stator is called the middleman because it serves as the conduit that reverses transmission fluid and sends it back to a turbine impeller. (Google, DoubleClick, YouTube, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Impeller Pump The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. It's all about creating an overall tuned package that complements the rest of your car. Think of it as two fans facing eachother inside an enclosure. The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. The faster it spins, the more force it provides, which causes the fluid to flow faster and harder. So, you can see how those would be preferred from a standpoint of cost and packaging! I purchased my car 3 weeks ago from a new car dealership.. With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. Terms of Service - That should make you and your car happy. The combination of a smaller-diameter and lighter converter means that less engine torque is required for acceleration. This slippage is part of what determines the stall speed of the converter. Some iterations of the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DG started in first gear, but early transmissions started in second unless the driver manually selected Low. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. Obviously some sort of mechanism would have been required to determine what gear to select and when to actually shift, but starting with a Wilson box at least some of the problems would have been solved. Almost no one thinks of it, but when you drive your automatic transmission car, you're master over your cars torque converter. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. There is going to be some slip. For example, in park, it will say Desired Slip 1200, Actual: 730 (guess the engine rpm) As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. This is a red flag that lets you know you may need an expert to repair it for you. Last fall, the external filter disintegrated and clogged up the cooler. 51.91.16.67 Another fascinating article, thank you for all your effort! How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? (For each of these cookies, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash.) The _gat cookie, which may appear as _gat_gtag_UA_6113964_2, was sometimes set along with the _ga and _gid cookies to control how frequently requests were sent to the Google Analytics servers; this cookie typically persisted for only a few minutes at a time. Gears Magazine - Nag 1/722.6 P0741 TCC Slip The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). Akamai is a registered trademark or service mark of Akamai Technologies, Inc. in the United States (Reg. Ate Up With Motor, its logo, and other associated icons and graphics are trademarks and/or service marks of Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. JavaScript is disabled. The impellers spun by the engine's crankshaft. It's also important not to undersell converter weight as a contributing factor to maximizing acceleration. By contrast, a fluid clutch always slips at least a little. Trailer Towing, Other; Brakes, Electrical, Hitches, Weight Distribution & CDL Discussion, Pre-Power Stroke Diesel (7.3L IDI & 6.9L), Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels, Explorer, Sport Trac, Mountaineer & Aviator, 1987 - 1996 F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1980 - 1986 Bullnose F100, F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1967 - 1972 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1961 - 1966 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1957 - 1960 F100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1948 - 1956 F1, F100 & Larger F-Series Trucks, 1968-Present E-Series Van/Cutaway/Chassis, Nite, Nascar & Other Limited Edition Ford Trucks, Supercharger, Turbocharger, Nitrous Oxide & Water/Methanol Injection, Small Block V8 (221, 260, 289, 5.0/302, 5.8/351W), Big Block V8 - 385 Series (6.1/370, 7.0/429, 7.5/460), FE & FT Big Block V8 (332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, 428), 335 Series- 5.8/351M, 6.6/400, 351 Cleveland, Y-Block V8 (239, 272, 292, 312, 317, 341, 368), Audio & Video Systems, Navigation, Satellite Radio & Mobile Electronics, Bed Covers, Tonneau covers, Toppers/Canopies & Bed liners, Brakes, Steering, Suspension, Tires, & Wheels, Fuel Injection, Carburetion & Fuel System, Vendor Specials, Discounts, Product Announcements & Group Buys, ? If the solenoid is not regulating the fluid flow properly, it could cause variability in the torque converter clutch performance as well. A 5 percent slippage factor means that if the impeller is spinning 3,000 rpm, the turbine is only spinning 2,850, or 5 percent slower. (These cookies may not be set at all for administrative users unless they access the publicly visible portions of the website and/or update their consent settings e.g., by accepting an updated version of the Privacy Policy. Currently the vehicle is much better to drive. The cookies normally expire in about 10 days, and are not set at all if you do not access any password-protected content. Welcome to the dark world of torque converters. When you submit a comment, you may have the option save your information for future comments, storing the info in these cookies. After logging in, the wp-settings-UID cookies store the logged-in user's configuration settings, while the wp-settings-time-UID cookies record the time those configuration settings were last set; again, there may be multiple iterations of each of these cookies, which normally expire after about one year. You are using an out of date browser. They may persist for up to two years. A flyweight 2,800-pound car like an early Mustang or Chevy II could use less multiplication to successfully launch on their relatively smaller rear tires. * Various services, specials, or coupon offers are available at participating locations only. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. In third gear, the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DGs lockup clutch drives the transmissions output shaft at engine speed, providing a completely mechanical direct drive with no hydraulic slippage. Less than 15rpm is normal and more than that will cause shudder. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. Fluid clutches fluid couplings and torque converters have many advantages for automotive transmissions, but with those benefits comes a cost: fuel-wasting hydraulic slippage even at cruising speed. That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! of course it could be logging falsely No, that just means its not locking, or the pid isn't reading right. (At this point, an updated, expanded edition wouldnt go amiss, given all the subsequent development in CVTs and automatics with five or more speeds.). 1. and 2. Logging in sets the wordpress_logged_in_xx, wordpress_sec_xx, and/or wordpress_xx cookies, which store the user's login credentials to allow access to the administrative dashboard and other administrative functions; there may be multiple iterations of each cookie. You've now repaired or replaced your torque converter if it exhibited any of the above common torque converter problems. When the vehicle is at rest, the fluid clutch slips enough to allow the engine to idle with the transmission in gear without stalling. Because of the lack of traction and limited tires, it's not critical that a street engine launch at peak-torque rpm. As the new owner of a 92 Alante with the viscous clutch I wondered what the difference was. The effective dates of the current versions are: Paid advertisements and/or sponsored links on Ate Up With Motor will be identified with words such as "Sponsor," "Sponsors," "Sponsored Link(s)," "Sponsored Content," "Ad," "Advertisement," "Advertisement(s)," or "Paid Promotion" (and/or by images or icons containing such words). When you experience fluid leaks, you aren't retaining the amount of transmission fluid; the torque converter needs to transfer the power from the engine to the transmission. So I picked up a scan tool to save on the abundant diagnosing fees associated with owning a 2005 5.4 f150. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Torque converter seals can get damaged for several reasons. The wahFontColor and wahBgColor cookies, which are set if you alter the site's color scheme, normally expire after about 14 days, but you can remove them immediately by clicking the "Restore Defaults" button on the sidebar. Ate Up With Motor's Terms of Use and Privacy Policy may be revised from time to time. Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics One thing Ive always wondered about was if any manufacturers looked into Wilson pre-selector gearboxes as a basis of an automatic. But the most common torque converter problems are listed below. The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. Signs of a Failing Torque Converter [and How to Fix it!] In this schematic of a basic three-element torque converter with lockup clutch, the torus cover, lockup clutch pressure plate, and impeller (red) all rotate with the engine flywheel. These cookies expire in about 15 days if the user clicks "Remember Me" when logging in; if not, the cookies normally expire when the user closes their browser (or other user agent), or, failing that, within about two days. 3. and 5. Well done and thank you; this must have been an enormous amount of work. Petrol / Gas. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). The GM team that designed Hydra-Matic was certainly familiar with the Wilson preselector. A malfunctioning torque converter can have a shudder that comes from the transmission. This and the GM automatic history are probably the most definitive descriptions of these technologies on the Internet, excepting pure design and engineering treatises. Torque Converters - Unlocking The Secrets - Car Craft Magazine - MotorTrend Estimate Converter Slip. Manage Preferences - 5r110 torque slip | Ford Power Stroke Nation There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. Accessing the login page sets the wordpress_test_cookie, a session cookie that tests whether the user's browser (or other user agent) will allow the cookies needed to log in to the administrative dashboard; this cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). I have yet to read this monumental work in depth. I changed to the Spartan V2 a few weeks ago. Think of it this way, a well built converter, 10" may slip 4-5%, if yours slips 6-7% higher, you are baking the fluid, cooking the band, and compromising the clutches, and giving up mph and ET. You also need to move forward with viable options that will help you get your torque converter fixed. iThemes is one of the Liquid Web family of brands; iThemes and Liquid Web are trademarks of Liquid Web, LLC.). In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). Achieving a true 1:1 speed relationship between the turbine and the impeller is not possible with a non-lockup torque converter since it is still a fluid coupling. In first and second gears, the converter turbine drove the front annulus (ring gear). Basically, the fluid exits the center of the turbine and is redirected by the stator back into the impeller. I agree that a manual transmission option would be great. RPM. Turbine Input Speed Sensor. - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum Hence, you've commanded your torque converter every time your car shifted gears. The stator redirects fluid from the turbine to the impeller, radically increasing the force of the fluid entering the impeller and multiplying the torque input from the engine. Just thought I would share with everyone some recent learnings I've had with my 2010 EB Flex. Tire slip is likely causing your speed difference. He wondered if something internal may be damaged and the tow tune showed it up not allowing the torque converter to unlock soon enough which caused the bog down issue. The speed difference between impeller and turbine is simply lost to heat within the operating fluid. What to Do to Fix Overheating and Seal Damage. U.S. Pat. Once the clutch plate is fully engaged against the pressure plate, both must turn together at the same speed. The slipping occurs while you're driving or changing gears, and it usually comes with some odd noises too. (author diagram). Enables the Support Ate Up With Motor box (which contains an embedded PayPal payment button see the, gdpr[allowed_cookies], gdpr[privacy_bar], gdpr[consent_types], cookieconsent_status, _ga, _gid, _gat, _gat_gtag_UA_6113964_2, comment_author_xx, comment_author_email_xx, comment_author_url_xx, wahFontColor, wahBgColor, a11y-desaturated, a11y-high-contrast, a11y-larger-fontsize, VISITOR_INFO1_LIVE, VISITOR_INFO1_LIVE__k, VISITOR_INFO1_LIVE__default, YSC, YEC, _Secure-YEC, PREF, GED_PLAYLIST_ACTIVITY, CGIC, DV, CONSENT, SOCS, AEC, exchange_uid, id, pm_sess, pm_sess_NNN, aboutads_sessNNN, remote_sid, test_cookie, use_hitbox, _gac_gb_, __gads, _gcl_, _gcl_au, _gcl_aw, _gcl_dc, _gcl_gb, _gcl_gf, _gcl_ha, __gpi, __gpi_optout, __gsas, Conversion, 1P_JAR, ACLK_DATA, GPS, NID, ENID, ANID, AID, TAID, IDE, APIS, SAPISID, DSID, HSD, SID, HSID, SSID, SNID, SIDCC, FCCDCF, FCNEC, FLC, FPGCLAW, FPGCLDC, FPAU, GAPS, GLC, N_T, OTZ, PAIDCONTENT, RUL, TAID, UULE, LOGIN_INFO, Permission, yt.innertube::nextId, yt.innertube::requests, yt-html5-player-modules::subtitlesModuleData::display-settings, yt-html5-player-modules::subtitlesModuleData::module-enabled, ytidb::LAST_RESULT_ENTRY_KEY, yt-player-autonavstate, yt-player-bandaid-host, yt-player-bandwidth, yt-player-headers-readable, yt-player-lv, yt-player-quality, yt-player-volume, yt-remote-cast-available, yt-remote-cast-installed, yt-remote-connected-devices, yt-remote-device-id, yt-remote-fast-check-period, yt-remote-session-app, yt-remote-session-name, application_server_key, AuthKey, DeviceId, Endpoint, HighPriorityNotificationShowCount, HomePromptCount, HomePromptTime, IDToken, IndexedDBCheck, LogsDatabaseV2, P256dhKey, Permission, PromptTags, RegistrationTimestamp, shell_identifier_key, TimestampLowerBound, yt-serviceworker-metadata, _abexps, aka_debug, clips, continuous_play_v3, embed_preferences, has_logged_in, is_logged_in, jsessionID, player, search_click_position, Searchtoken, stats_end_date, stats_start_date, sst_aid, uid, v6f, vimeo, vuid, _ceg.s, _ceg.u, optimizelyBuckets, optimizelyEndUserId, optimizelySegments, _ga, _ga_, _gac_, _gaexp, _gaexp_rc, _gat_, _opt_awcid, _opt_awgid, _opt_awkid, _opt_awmid, _opt_utmc, _opt_expid, __utma, __utmb, __utmc, __utmt, __utmv, __utmz, _dc_gtm_, AMP_TOKEN, FPID, GA_OPT_OUT, adsense, adsenseReferralSourceId, adsenseReferralSubId, adsenseReferralUrl, adsenseReferralUrlQuery, S_adsense, Conversion, _gac_gb_, __gads, _gcl_, _gcl_au, _gcl_aw, _gcl_dc, _gcl_gb, _gcl_gf, _gcl_ha, __gpi, __gpi_optout, __gsas, id, pm_sess, pm_sess_NNN, aboutads_sessNNN, test_cookie, CONSENT, SOCS, GED_PLAYLIST_ACTIVITY, 1P_JAR, ACLK_DATA, GPS, NID, ENID, ANID, AID, TAID, IDE, APIS, SAPISID, DSID, HSD, SID, HSID, SSID, SNID, SIDCC, FCCDCF, FCNEC, FLC, FPGCLAW, FPGCLDC, FPAU, GAPS, GLC, N_T, OTZ, PAIDCONTENT, RUL, TAID, UULE, wordpress_test_cookie, itsec-hb-login-xx, itsec_interstitial_browser, wordpress_sec_xx, wordpress_logged_in_xx, wordpress_xx, wp-settings-UID, wp-settings-time-UID, wp-saving-post, wp-donottrack_feed, (Archived) Privacy Policy for the Facebook Page for Ate Up With Motor, Giving Slip the Slip: Lockup Torque Converters and Split Torque Automatic Transmissions, sidebar of our article on GMs other early automatic transmissions, Information Collection and Sharing Notice, Turbos for the Turnpike: The Turbocharged Oldsmobile F-85 Jetfire, "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services", "Google Analytics Cookie Usage on Websites", "Our advertising and measurement cookies", "Privacy" section of the Optimizely Trust Center, "Cookies and localStorage in the Optimizely snippet".